tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7914939.post110669079163086113..comments2023-10-04T01:27:24.003-07:00Comments on Versus Populum: A Unhelpful Experience: The ELCA Task Force Report on SexualityDwight P.http://www.blogger.com/profile/15849665963994688905noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7914939.post-1107379330389990652005-02-02T13:22:00.000-08:002005-02-02T13:22:00.000-08:00First, Dwight - I've been anxiously awaiting what ...First, Dwight - I've been anxiously awaiting what you had to think about this document, and was not disappointed. As usual, you are right on. I was cooking dinner two weeks ago listening to Keillor and started hooting (and sighing on the inside) about his response to the thing. Right on. Thanks for reprinting it earlier. <br /><br />In reading Pr. Frontz's post, I was struck by his term "One ELCA Order of Ministry" (or something to that effect). Unfortunately, we already have two orders of ministry in the ELCA; again, put forth under the guise of "conscience". Indeed, the CWA has already ceded authority over to bishops and indiviual pastors for ordinations outside the historic episcopate. There have been at least 25 documented (by WordAlone.org) or so "extraordinary ordinations" that have taken place since that compromise amendment was added to the CCM aggrement (and in my view if I were Episcopalian, a nullifying amendment). For instance, the bishop in my home synod, when asked about it, doesn't even bother to bring it up to ordinands the neccesity to have an episocpal bishop present at ordination. His willfull disobediance and ignorance could perhaps be seen as "pastoral," but because the CWA gave up it's authority, anything and everything can now go on if your conscience tells you so. <br /><br />It seems to me that these buzz words "Conscience" and "Pastoral" are new code words for "screw authority."<br /><br />I wish I were closer, Dwight. This would be a great dinner discussion.Daniel S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16715299196044819068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7914939.post-1106926721598995442005-01-28T07:38:00.000-08:002005-01-28T07:38:00.000-08:00I think, aside from the ecclesiological implicatio...I think, aside from the ecclesiological implications, that a major disadvantage to "each does what is right in her own eyes" is that it opens the floodgates to all kinds of unfairness. We will no longer be treating everyone equally. Decisions about whom to obey or bless will be made based on "politics," or personality, or compensation, or ... . I have personally experienced differntial "pastoral" care from bishops and it made me feel like dirt. In my experience, the Recommendations will do even more damage than no action at all.<br /><br />Thanks for your comments, Pastor Frontz.Dwight P.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15849665963994688905noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7914939.post-1106854061300065662005-01-27T11:27:00.000-08:002005-01-27T11:27:00.000-08:00Agreed with your commentary. The other thing that...Agreed with your commentary. The other thing that comes to my mind is the ubiquitous word "pastoral." As in, "we are not going to legislate this, we are going to deal with it in a pastoral way." But for better or for worse, the ELCA makes its most important decisions via a legislative body. The Churchwide Assembly - not a pope, not a collegium of bishops (the bishops have no authority to table this report, BTW), not a magisterium, not a group of teaching theologians, not a majority of the respondents to the study - THE CHURCHWIDE ASSEMBLY has the responsibility and the authority to make decisions regarding ordination standards. To say that the Churchwide Assembly should cede this authority to individual synodical bishops so that they can deal "pastorally" with people who aspire to the one rostered ministry of the ELCA, seems to me to invite chaos and a disunity which the book of Judges described this way: "In those days there was no king in Israel; all the people did what was right in their own eyes."<br /><br />BTW, pardon my signature - I have to have it this way because I have a blog for my youth group.Maurice Frontzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00923071081627969343noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7914939.post-1106845991028023322005-01-27T09:13:00.000-08:002005-01-27T09:13:00.000-08:00In all honesty, Sister, I hope and pray that the b...In all honesty, Sister, I hope and pray that the bishops will simply thank the Tast Force for their work and table the Report. There is no good to come from action one way or another. Going to the CWA should be a resolution with about 8 "whereas clauses and two "therefore be it resolved" clauses: Thank the Task Force; Recommend no changes. I'm not sure that such a move would wreck any greater havoc on our beloved ELCA than would submitting the recommendations in their current form -- or, worse, to my mind, submitting the first two and not the third (which I've heard is a possibility -- but I don't want to spread gossip).<br /><br />Dwight P.Dwight P.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15849665963994688905noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7914939.post-1106764936166246002005-01-26T10:42:00.000-08:002005-01-26T10:42:00.000-08:00"[The report] makes no effort to report on how tho..."[The report] makes no effort to report on how those various interpretations might be addressed or weighed. I think that lack represents a serious lost opportunity."<br /><br />Thank you, brother. I wasn't feeling up to taking this on, so I'm grateful to you for doing it. (Now all I have to do is comment!) <br /><br />Naturally, I'm disappointed in the report. It's clear that it took a great deal of work, and infuriating that it produced such feckless result.<br /><br />"Study" to this committee clearly meant "study what members of the ELCA think on these issues by conducting an unscientific poll, and make recommendations that will soothe the majority;" and not "study the scriptures and other learnings to discern what is right in the eyes of God."<br /><br />This represents not just a lost opportunity, but a squandered one.<br /><br />So now what?<br /><br />DashAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com