tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7914939.post111755556226609866..comments2023-10-04T01:27:24.003-07:00Comments on Versus Populum: Maybe I'm not a LutheranDwight P.http://www.blogger.com/profile/15849665963994688905noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7914939.post-1117782781308153312005-06-03T00:13:00.000-07:002005-06-03T00:13:00.000-07:00I think you're saying the same thing that Bonhoeff...I think you're saying the same thing that Bonhoeffer said in the chapter on "Costly Grace," that Luther had the right idea but that in isolating justification from the life of discipleship, Luther's heirs(?) obscured his legacy. Of course, DB saw his own church as neutered by this error. <BR/><BR/>And yet DB in his writing was one of the fiercest advocates of justification by faith, at least in his writings. For him, his active spirituality flowed out of the life of being a justified sinner, his life only in Christ, his eyes only on Christ. As we have discussed before, I read "growth in grace" or "sanctification" to him was a process of self-forgetfulness more than anything else, of following Christ ever more closely in thanksgiving for justification. <BR/><BR/>We are agreed that Christ is not some "get out of jail free card" that we can play after living our lives for ourselves. I agree wholeheartedly that we must be about preaching and teaching the fruits of faith as part of the Christian life. My two questions are: which obedient life? (who draws up the program?); and when our own sanctification fails us, will we then be able to preach justification as the source of our confidence in Christ?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7914939.post-1117735348619079472005-06-02T11:02:00.000-07:002005-06-02T11:02:00.000-07:00But, Chip, I don't deny anything that you say. I t...But, Chip, I don't deny anything that you say. I think my problem is not that I'm not akin to Brother Martin, but that I am not akin to the movement that bears his name. It seems to me that what is called "Lutheranism" has so ideologized his original insights as to render many of them unrecognizable as "Luther-an." I think the Finnish research is calling a lot of that to light. <BR/><BR/>It is for me the stunning example of what I am saying that in the two-volume set, Christian Dogmatics (yes: edited by Braaten and Jenson!), the book-length chapter on "the Christian Life" (where one might expect to find a discussion of ethics and discipleship and sanctification and the like) is Foerde's treatise on justification by faith. Even my teacher and my friend (whose judgment I have a lot of trouble ever doubting) did not include a chapter on sanctification or "growth in grace." <BR/><BR/>It's that sort of thing that makes me question my "Lutheranism," not a narrow vision of Old Man's own theology.<BR/><BR/>But, Dash, I don't want to be a "Dwightist." For one thing that makes me sound like a camp follower of Dwight Moody, and I've seen his church (it's ugly). For another, I think we "believe" or "keep the faith" by the lights of some tradition. You have to come down somewhere. I see flaws in the "Free Church" movement akin to those of the "Free Believer" impetus since the Enlightenment. So I need some kind of adjective to describe "Christian," 'cause I'm not sure that there such a thing as an unhyphenated Christian.Dwight P.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15849665963994688905noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7914939.post-1117641321680048432005-06-01T08:55:00.000-07:002005-06-01T08:55:00.000-07:00So, Br. Dwight, Luther didn't preach about good wo...So, Br. Dwight, Luther didn't preach about good works? Check out again the Christmas postils. "Don't come to me and say that you would have given the Christ-child a place. You have Christ in your neighbor, give him a place. Serve him." Review the statement in <I>The Freedom of a Christian</I>: "Christians are perfectly dutiful slaves, subject to all." <BR/><BR/>Reread the Ten Commandments in the Small and Large Catechism, especially when Luther insists that God intends that we serve our neighbor's bodily needs, that we uphold our neighbor's marriage, that we refuse to speak uncharitably of our neighbors. Is not this ethical instruction no less demanding in its own way than the Sermon on the Mount itself?<BR/><BR/>Does not Luther tell the peasants that they must not revolt against the government, that in doing that they would not be seeking God's kingdom, but their own, basing his teaching on the Sermon on the Mount? Does he not argue that Christians have a responsibility to educate children, so that they too can read and receive the benefits of the Gospel? Does he not bitterly complain in the preface to the LC that "since the Gospel has been restored the people have mastered the fine art of abusing liberty"?<BR/><BR/>Camassia hits it right on the head on her blog when she talks about a giving that is truly self-giving versus a giving that is selfish - I think Paul may have thought of it first.<BR/><BR/>For me, the miracle of Bonhoeffer is that he seems to have read Luther almost exactly right - he refused to take Luther's proclamation of justification out of the context of discipleship. Reread the chapter on Costly Grace in your AF edition of Discipleship. It's probably a surer guide to Luther's thought and its distortions than Martin Marty, whatever, his qualifications.<BR/><BR/>The problem may not be with Luther or his thought. Perhaps it is that we are deaf.<BR/><BR/>C.Maurice Frontzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00923071081627969343noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7914939.post-1117597333896288302005-05-31T20:42:00.000-07:002005-05-31T20:42:00.000-07:00So maybe you aren't a Lutheran? Maybe you're a Dwi...So maybe you aren't a Lutheran? Maybe you're a Dwightist. I think so many of your perspectives are unique. Or at least the combination of them is.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com